Kenban

Cedar Fair tries to not build the really big new attractions near each other. The idea is you want to cycle around a park basically rejuvenating areas as you go which also helps spread out the crowds. Fixating in one area causes issues. With how much work has gone into Coney Mall, and Area 72 it’s time to move onto other areas of the park, Action Zone feels like the logical next step. Leaving the space empty for a few years is better for the long term health of the park then shoving something in quickly. There is nothing that special about its location which makes it important to build something now. It’s a central location but also at the back of the park.

Ignoring the fact that Cedar Fair executives have stated in interviews that they do not intend to build an entrance coaster at Kings Island because they like the entrance and feel a coaster could ruin the look and feel. Some of those individuals have moved on, its possible plans have changed. Also my guess is if they do build an entrance coaster it would stay off to the side and not pass over or under the entrance. Your not wrong building to the entrance would come from that direction, but here’s the thing, it would also likely be closer to the park and not directly over that road where the markers are located. Starting near the SOB station also does not make sense if your going to the entrance, it would literally take a coaster as long or longer than Orion to make it between those two points by going around Timberwolf unless you build directly over Action Zone. We typically receive a coaster every 3 years that means next coaster is likely 2023 or maybe a little later. This also makes sense because it is the year after the anniversary. Anniversary years are terrible times to open big new rides, people will visit just because of the anniversary there is no need to build something new to draw in guests. But at this point I expect 2023 and later projects are on hold, 2022 projects which can be delayed likely have been as well. Modern coaster design calls for a big open entrance plaza, and that rides are not placed on dead ends. Building a station anywhere back towards The Bat would likely be a mistake. This means opening up space in Action Zone. Likely either EXtreme Skyflyer, Timberwolf, Congo Falls, or more than one of these. Here’s the thing, I have been expecting a remodeling of Action Zone, which would include removing Congo Falls and Timberwolf, and possibly moving the Skyflyer somewhere else. Painting the tower, retheming the ride and building a new queue for the Drop Tower. Move the maintenance road, and build a new “shorter” path to The Bat. Build a few new flats, rename the area, and leave a nice spot for a queue, entrance plaza, station, etc for a coaster, which would run where the trees are located between the parking lot and the park, likely heading towards Great Wolf Lodge, before heading back towards the entrance. This would likely be a huge multi year project. The flat rides, and new area could be ready for the anniversary, and the coaster to come later. I just cannot see a coaster just getting shoved into Action Zone without some big changes, maybe not as extensive as I am thinking, but at the same time it would not surprise me. It also feels too early to be on coaster watch for one which is likely years away.

Something people need to keep in mind is the 50th anniversary is coming and frankly corporate is going to want the park looking as good as possible. Tearing down an aging station which is only used for a haunt just to clean up the park could easily be justified, also being 20 years old it might need inspections or maintenance that they do not wish to perform. The 50th is going to happen once, and they will want to take advantage of it. The park is going to have modifications which have likely been planned for a little while now between now and 2022, and anything after that might be totally changing but between now and then, I would not be surprised to see many projects continue. The other issue is that no matter what is going on in the world right now, a lot of work likely has contracts which were signed months ago, do not forget the filling with the county which listed companies the park had contracts with listed 2021 and that filling was from last year. I remember a consultant coming out earlier this year saying amusement park contract writing will likely change after this is all over, too many parks are committed to projects they may no longer want or might not be able to afford. I cannot help think about the fact that all of the work seems centered around either a road, or a maintenance road. The only paved path from the parking lot to the maintenance buildings passes under the pathways to the SOB station. Is all of this work linked? Maybe, and it could easily be linked in a way we are not aware of. I think we are too fixated on a coaster being the link. For instance a complete retheming of Action Zone, with the removal of Timberwolf could easily force the park to move maintenance roads and repave Columbia Rd.

If you look at the correct location there is zero work that has been done as far as I can tell. There are longitude and latitude coordinates on the previous page of this thread. That location is where the drag strip ride was located, and it appears to be completely untouched.

Neither, Mystic Timbers is better then either one.

The trains the park currently owns have a hard time with even a small grade. I cannot remember which direction it occurs but there is enough of a raise in ground level that the trains have literally rolled backwards while under power, and have had to stop, back up, and try again. Kings Island has very little flat ground, and making the train circle the park while not impossible would require several trestle bridges and likely would require new engines. Doable, but not reasonable, although I would love to see it.

I am not sold on the park running shuttles, it’s possible but is the dorm big enough to justify the expense? I measured it on goggle maps and it’s just over a half mile, that’s about the same as walking from Banshee to Soak City, or the same as walking from Great Wolf Lodge. My guess is still lighting, new light poles, which might have call boxes to connect to park security, maybe even security cameras. They are definitely going to want to improve the path to the dorms and the logical path is Columbia Rd. But I expect people will be walking. People keep talking about removing Timberwolf, but no one is talking about the fact that the only paved road back to the maintenance buildings outside of the park is right behind Timberwolf. Moving the path to The Bat requires going under this road because there is only one place to head back there and that’s the current path. Unless they also remove this section of the road and reroute the traffic which would have to travel down Columbia road a little ways, and require paving a small section to link up under The Bat to around Banshee. Also the park just built a new storage building behind Timberwolf when they restarted Winterfest.

One word, MONEY, someone has to actually pay to build it, and the people behind the project were never able to get enough financing. The original plan was according to their own numbers was going to cost $500 million, the scaled back plans were still going to be $250 million. Before anyone argues price tag, those are the official estimates from the developers of the project. They own the land, got I believe all of the permissions to build the tower, Universal Orlando did try to stop it but it was approved anyways. But I cannot imagine a bank willing to finance this, and getting private investors have obviously proven difficult. I cannot imagine it would be possible with the mess going on right now to find anyone willing to invest in a giant tourist project. Also this coaster is going to have to be expensive to ride, they have to make their money back somehow, and frankly if it’s $25-30 to ride, I will do it once.

S&S purchased the assets of Arrow and still manufactures replacement parts. They own all of the designs and my understanding is that effectively there is nothing that is not easily purchasable, they will happily manufacture anything needed and carry a lot of the common parts so they can rapidly ship them out. Arrow coasters are known to be easy and cheap to maintain.

The current trains that they have are from a third party company called KumbaK and not Vekoma. Vekoma has official trains with vests now, I remember reading about a park in Europe getting them for their SLC in 2021, not sure when they became available so not sure if any SLC is running them, but from what I have seen they look comfortable. I would not be surprised to see the park get the official trains from Vekoma, and could easily see them rename the coaster at the same time to go from T3 to T4.

It does say "giving guests and All Season Dining members a fresh and exciting new menu option" so there is at least a chance.

All of the companies which normally have park buyouts cancelled, so there is no reason to not be open to the public.

Kings Island can always add extra hours later, it is easier to lengthen days then shorten them. I am not certain if they are more concerned about attendance without Haunt, or a concern about having enough employees to properly staff the park. If the park is packed with hour plus lines all day in October I could see them adding on an extra hour or two on Saturdays. We might also see the parks empty out in the afternoon and have no good reason to stay open later.

No because your acting like the policy is it’s 20 years old tear it down. But thats not it at all. It’s that they want to get 20 years of use, then sit down and say is it still popular, is it a draw to the park, how much is maintenance costing, what condition is it in, etc. Rides do not always last 20 years but it’s typically something major when they do not. At the same time it is why you often see rides which are not popular, or known to cost too much to maintain, or just always down, get removed right around the 20 year mark. Firehawk was I believe 19 years old when it was scrapped. If someone were to graph the length of time between when the ride was initially installed, to when it was removed you should find a spike around 20 years, and a long tail.

Cedar Fair’s policy is they want rides to last 20 years. It’s not that will not remove them early if they are garbage or will not keep them longer, just 20 years is basically the baseline. Universal has a similar policy to an extent but they lean a lot harder toward replacement or renovations after 20 years. For instance Possessed was originally built at Geauga Lake in 2000 making it 20 years old this year, assuming it does end up being removed. Volcano 1998 to 2018. Does that mean Wicked Twister will be removed in 2022? Not really, Possessed is the oldest surviving impulse coaster and it’s common for later versions of ride models to be more reliable and less costly to maintain then the earlier versions.

I am not certain anyone ever really defined year round operations. There are two different ways to look at year round operations, 365 days a year, or they are open weekends year round and weekdays when it makes sense. The park might not ever reach true 365 operations but weekends year round is not only doable, Carowinds is closer then you might realize. Winterfest ended I believe December 31, and the opening was scheduled for March 21st this year. They should have only been closed for basically 11 weekends, so they only need to add 22 operating days and they will have reached year round operations. I believe the weather is good enough, it can get very cold, but it is still better than some other year round parks, just most of those are overseas. If the goal is year round operations I would focus on ways to draw in guests during January and February. For example another indoor theatre for shows, a dark ride, and make up some festival. Not sure how well it would work but it might be possible to have one or more traveling shows, which start the season at Carowinds then move to other parks as they start their seasons. Total attendance does not matter, as long as these days do not hurt the regular season they just need to worry about making them be enough of a draw during those handful of days to justify being open. I think you will see small moves like leaving winterfest open an extra weekend or two in January. Move the opening forward a week or two, and see what happens. As the gap shrinks at some point just announce the park is going to year round operations and run the park even if it loses money those handful of days in January and February. I could see it happening in a few years, but not until after it recovers from the current mess.

Knott’s already owns several properties across the various streets around the park. Mostly used for overflow parking for Haunt, and holidays. But I am unsure if this is speculation, rumors, or what but I know websites have discussed basically doing the same thing Disneyland, and Cedar Point have done, move maintenance and other facilities across the street, down the street, etc, basically just build new facilities and expand the park onto their current location. There is easily enough room between the current public areas of the park and the hotel for an entire new section of the park. But Knott’s Scary Farm is incredibly important, and those overflow lots might be more valuable then expanding the park. The rumor I have heard is a significant portion of the parks profits are from Scary Farm. Back to the original topic, Cedar Point did receive several good rides, and nice upgrades but frankly, nothing really that unexpected, except for maybe the sports facilities, or the hotel and property purchases, none of which directly effects the park. I would say Carowinds easily had the best decade, because even the locals were surprised by the frequency, size, and expense of the changes. Corporate looks at Carowinds as their next big park trying to turn the chain from the top four parks, to the top five, and as such money is just being dumped into the park. Carowinds is the only park outside the top four I can even argue being the best off in the chain. The issue in my mind is the top four just seem to get what they need or deserve, not much of what they received felt like it was something special, like the chain really went above and beyond normal expectations. But I can easily say they did for Carowinds.

Could be plans to replace the fences, or new lighting, other parking lot improvements. Maybe a new walking path? Really sounds like its nothing more then infrastructure improvements.

On average the rate of coaster installs has been the same since Cedar Fair purchased the Paramount Parks, 3 years. Starting at the last install before the purchase the park received coasters in 05, 07, 09, 14, 17, 20. The only bigger gap was immediately after 2, two year gaps, which averages out to 3 years. Before the pandemic I was expecting either 2023, or 24, and was mostly listing 2023. We might actually still see one then, the thing is the chain needs attendance to return to normal as quickly as possible at the 4 big parks, because they will be the most important to get the financials in order. In the past we have seen parks successfully install large new attractions during recoveries to see attendance pop back up. Personally this looks like an infrastructure project. Possibly drainage, or road upgrades. It might lead to a coaster, but I do not expect to see anything obvious in any of the work being performed. While I think a ride could be shoved into the space of Invertigo, modern ride design does not really support doing so. I would also expect Congo Falls to also be removed. I have some ideas on how it could be done with just Invertigo but I would expect to see any big new ride to have a plaza, and for part of its structure to be closer to the main pathways. Also boat rides like that have just fallen out of favor with the public, people do not want to get soaking wet and walk around, or to get their electronics wet. Water Water Canyon is still popular but I just rarely see many people riding Congo Falls, and other parks have been removing similar rides. I could also see how the park would have enough space by just removing Congo Falls and leaving Invertigo. Before anyone asks, I do not see Congo falls being moved, such a significant percentage of the attractions cost is the construction that it would make more sense to just purchase a new ride instead of moving this one.

I for one do not believe it because it is a common mistake, but Wodan was not even the tallest GCI when it was built. There is a GCI at a park in China called Knight Valley which opened the year before Wodan and was already taller. But Mystic Timbers is actually the 4th tallest GCI, because Python in Bamboo Forest is also taller, and it’s not even close Python is 160 ft tall.

Disney did a better job explaining, but the parks are likely profitable in the sense that they are covering all variable operating costs, and it sounds like they are even covering the current fixed costs, but even if they are as soon as the parks close for the year the revenue stops and they have to cover ongoing costs with debt which would normally be paid from previous profits. The parks have done a good job at keeping the expenses low enough they are better off then if the parks were closed, but this is not sustainable long term, because taxes, electricity, maintenance, and full time employees still need paid. Also Kings Island and Cedar Point are very profitable in good times, they are two of the most profitable seasonal amusement parks in the country and likely the planet. Looking at just Cedar Fair the big 4 parks, Cedar Point, Knott's, Kings Island, Canada's Wonderland account for 80% of the chains revenue, and most of the profits as well. That 80% came from the article linked earlier, I remember it being slightly lower based on previous charts which the chain has released, but its been a few years since I saw one.

It is starting to sound like the current design of Epic Universe will never be built. Construction was supposed to start soon with a planned opening in 3 years. But everyone working on the project has been laid off, and Comcast has officially announced an indefinite delay. Rumors point at its likely to be a very long delay. Needing an actual recovery before any work will start again, and if it’s anything like after 9/11 it could be a decade. I have been hearing rumors that Universal is between a rock and a hard place here with contractual obligations to build Nintendo World in Orlando. If Epic Universe is delayed it’s going to have to be built somewhere, which likely means it’s original location replacing the kid zone in USF.

I wish the KI&MV Railroad one was longer. I like how on most of the rides they were able to get just the sounds of the rides, and guests. The handful of scenes where they picked up either music from the park or another ride like WindSeeker really stand out like they do not belong. They also need a trailer at the end of some kind, if they are going to embed a link to another YouTube video or if they display the snoopy logo so that they are not on top of the video your trying to watch. Overall though pretty good. They look good on my 4K computer monitor.

Both Cedar Fair and Six Flags took out enough debt several months ago that they did not need to operate any of their parks this year and they would still have enough left over to open next year. Both have a lot more debt now, but neither are in as bad of shape as your trying to make them out to be. Six Flags was a licensing partner for those parks in China, it was not their choice it was due to the failure of the company in China who was going to own, operate, build, and most importantly pay for the parks. There never was a huge global expansion, they were trying to get other companies to pay them for branding rights.

Its complicated but they can, the height restrictions are due to the proximity to the airport. The restrictions are extremely complicated because they are between the runways, it causes the height restrictions to look like a dome and are lowest where Storm Chaser is located at around 100 ft., but much higher around the entrance, Lightning Run, and where the picnic grounds are located. To my knowledge the highest the park has ever built was 177ft tall and it was the old Tower of Power, and currently the highest is 150 ft tall. 177 ft tall is close enough that to the riders it will feel like a hyper coaster. But according to Ed Hart they actually can go 200 ft tall in a large enough area they can build a hyper. He has discussed it multiple time during Q&A sessions at the park with enthusiasts, so there is likely more information out there then I can remember.